February 17, 2023
[00:00:00] Kris: Welcome back to the Design and Prosper podcast. This is episode 66 where we discuss what to do when you have a real asshole of a client.
Hey everyone.
[00:00:16] Don: Hey
[00:00:17] Kris: So. Have you ever had a client who was just a real ass hat? Insert your favorite word
here.
[00:00:27] Don: That’s exactly right. We, We’ve called them all sorts of things. Yes, there has, you know, ass hat asshole, that might not sit well with you, so insert your favorite, adjective here. Um, and it could be explicit it’s to you.
[00:00:42] Kris: Yeah. It might be a C bomb.
[00:00:43] Don: Yeah, it might be an F bomb. and whatever. Whatever floats your boat. We have these people who come into our lives and we think that they are going to be an amazing match for us. We think that they tick all of our boxes and then before we know it, they’re showing a whole different side to themselves.
A little bit like jekyl and hyde. And we are shocked. We are really shocked at this change in personality..
[00:01:07] Kris: Yeah. We’ve had clients who have perplexed us entirely. Like we’ve done all the things, you know, it all starts so innocently, , they love your work. You’ve had this beautiful first meeting, you know, they seem likable.
They might even be quite magnetic and have a lot of charisma and be that big personality and, you know, you’ve done all the right things. We certainly did all the right things to protect ourselves from this horrible person. You know, all the systems are in place. Which get to in a bit. We’ll talk about some of the things that we have in place that you need to have in place as well.
[00:01:45] Don: Absolutely. Because unfortunately the truth is if you have a business that serves actual people, every now and again, you’re gonna run into a mean human. You know, just a bad egg, a nasty piece of work. They are out there. So when a project goes sour, it’s really hard not to take it personally.
[00:02:05] Kris: Yeah. Cuz after all, we, designers are beautiful, sensitive souls, and we say this with much love and affection. Not putting you down because we actually think that the sensitivity is what makes us amazing designers. It’s our superpower. It actually makes us superheroes because all of us designers, you can relate and empathize with your clients. Create insightful and aligned solutions because of that sensitivity.
[00:02:31] Don: Absolutely. We like to claim it and celebrate it as an aspect, as a really powerful aspect of who we are. We love it. We love our sensitivity and we own it.
[00:02:42] Kris: Yeah. But having a really horrible client, will affect us all and it can take an emotional toll on you and your business. It can keep you up at night and it can make you feel like you wish you never started a design business at all.
[00:02:59] Don: Yeah, absolutely. And that feeling, that feeling after a really awful interaction, whether it’s a phone conversation, an email interaction, whatever it is, you are left feeling really raw and really rattled and it stays with you.
And you know, in this episode we’re not claiming to have all of the answers, but we are here to offer solidarity. If you’re going through this, you are definitely not alone. And like Kris said earlier, some solutions for how to best safeguard you against having this type of relationship with clients moving into the future.
[00:03:34] Kris: Mm-hmm. . So I briefly mentioned some systems that we had in place. And even though we had all these in place, you still can get a bad egg, right? So we had the comprehensive briefing process that filters out the people who are not aligned to us. We had brand messaging that, you know, the assholes won’t find compelling, interesting, or relatable because you know, we are putting out a certain image and they just don’t like it.
They’re just not gonna be attracted to it. We get a chunky deposit up front, like a good deposit. We like 50% and that can throw, the horrible people off center as well. Like they throw them off the scent you know, in a way they’re like, no. Okay. I’m out.
[00:04:17] Don: Yeah. Because they’re so ego-centric and they are all about themselves. They block that. they’re like, no way. You prove yourself to me before I’m paying any money. So we find that’s a really good gatekeeper for the bad egg.
[00:04:29] Kris: Mm-hmm. And other things that you’ve had in place are consistent communication. You’ve got your great customer service all throughout the project. You’re really nurturing them and then bam, Yeah. Halfway through the project, the tables turn and we never saw it coming.
[00:04:44] Don: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And it’s happened to the best of us. it’s happened to the best of us, not once, but twice, probably multiple times because of all of those systems that were in place.
And this person did come across initially as really charismatic all of the things, ticked all of the boxes. And so when the tides do turn, it is shocking. It really does take you back a bit because you’re like, wow, where did this come from? I didn’t see it
[00:05:10] Kris: Mm-hmm. And if they’re a really nasty piece of work, it might not, I know it sounds strange, but it might not even be their fault. You know, we have so many people with mental illness, legitimate mental illnesses such as, um, narcissism. So the narcissistic personalities disorder, because experts say, will link in the show notes, but experts say that approximately 5% of the population is narcissistic. There would be a spectrum within that 5%. Yeah. but think about it. You know, for every hundred people, five you come across might be narcissistic.
[00:05:49] Don: Yes, we have met some of them.
[00:05:51] Kris: We have.
[00:05:53] Don: In our design businesses, we have met some of them because with narcissism in our experience, what comes with that is this amazing sense of confidence. They are the entrepreneur, they are the person who is going to put themselves out there and be a business owner and make demands and want to see their vision realized. So it’s a bit of a double edged sword. This amazing human who has all of these gorgeous goals and has the get up and go to make it happen also has a side to them that is all about them. So yeah, we’ve definitely come across some in that 5% for sure.
[00:06:30] Kris: Yeah. So one time we had a client who we got up to the logo presentation process. A brand strategy board was presented to them prior, so they had an understanding of where we were headed. Then we presented the logo and the response from this client was over the moon, you know, enthusiastic, so happy. So, so happy. And so we left them with that and we left them with an approval to sign. And then the next day, they didn’t respond. And then the day after that, there was no response still, and they ghosted us. And it was just so bizarre. It was still to this day, can’t figure out what happened. And then it got nasty.
So because we were doing the follow up emails. If we don’t hear from you, we’re gonna have to cancel this project. Here’s our invoice for the final amount due. And then, and then it all came out, it all exploded that it was a terrible solution. And how dare you do this? And it was like, what? Who did you talk to?
[00:07:33] Don: Yeah. Yeah. What happened? Where is the person that sat in that meeting? Where’s that person? Can we have that person back please?
[00:07:39] Kris: And I still stand by that solution. That was one of the most beautiful logos that we created. And they could have gone so far with that, but it was just so bizarre.
[00:07:48] Don: Doesn’t make sense.
[00:07:49] Kris: It doesn’t make sense.
[00:07:50] Don: No, it doesn’t make sense. Especially when the person is sitting opposite you saying all of the right things. You also would’ve felt that as well. You would’ve felt their enthusiasm. You would’ve felt their joy and their connection to that.
So something has happened post them leaving you and who knows what it is. And do you know what? You’ll never know. No, you’ll never know what happened there between the moment they fell in love with that logo to the moment they told you that you were absolutely off your head. So you’ll never know. You’ll never know.
And what we have to do then is we have to lean into acceptance of, okay. Alright. I can’t control this. There’s no controlling this situation. So there has to be a level of acceptance and we’ve got some strategy around that, which we’ll talk about in just a little minute.
[00:08:34] Kris: Yeah. And it, it hurt. It hurts so badly and stung for a while, you know, not just in that moment, but like, you can hear me talking about it now.
It still is so…
[00:08:42] Don: I can hear it in your voice. Yeah.
[00:08:44] Kris: I can laugh about it now you know, we went upwards and onwards from that, and we did get paid as well.
[00:08:51] Don: So not a complete ass hat if he paid you. That’s good.
[00:08:54] Kris: Yeah. I guess he acknowledged that we did follow the process. was just so strange.
[00:08:59] Don: Yeah. But they exist. What we are saying is they exist and it hurts and it isn’t an instant get over. It is something that you do have to work at getting quickly over as opposed to letting that anchor you, because that’s what can happen, it can really throw off course. Yeah. So we’ve got some strategies. We’re gonna share you in just a minute.
[00:09:22] Kris: Don, did you have any nasty client stories?
[00:09:24] Don: So I have an example of when we quoted for a dream job. It was the Dream client. It was a full brand package, absolutely beautiful. We had met with them, we had done all of the things, taken them through all of our systems, ticking all of the boxes, really excited, but we were noticing a little red flag here or there, pop up. So push it aside. Push, push the red flag aside. It’s not there. It’s not there. And then we’d keep going through the process. And we are always looking for a match in values when we work with our clients. So we were looking for that match. That match was not quite there, but we were willing to overlook that a little bit because so exciting, this beautiful, big juicy project. Then it got to the point where we were having a strategy around what was needed and what was required, and it was clear to us that it’s not quite a match for us and we couldn’t move forward. And even though it had been really pleasant up until that point, like acceptably pleasant up until that point, as soon as we said, look, we don’t think we can help you. We’re not quite a match, the nastiness ensued. It was just incredible. The Jekyll and Hyde I was like, whoa. Thank goodness we dodged a bullet. Yes, we did. Because if we had have just allowed ourselves to just dismiss the little red flags. We would’ve been in a relationship where possibly, like Kris’s example, we’d gotten right to the very end before, you know, the bad egg presented themselves, you know, so yeah, it can show up at any part of the process in the timeline that you have with a client. So just be on the lookout and just be paying attention. And again, we reiterate, we’re always looking for those red flags. But if they are there, we need you to stand your ground. And once they turn into this, you know, mean piece of work, we need you to stand your ground. We need you not to fall apart and not to crumble.
[00:11:28] Kris: Yeah. Because we do not want you to give up on your clients altogether just because of one bad egg or even two.
But you can examine your process. So ask yourself a few questions like, is there anything I could have done differently? And that might feel hard. Was there anything that I could have done? Is there any accountability on my part? Possibly.
[00:11:50] Don: Mm, absolutely possibly. And these experiences, both Kris and I believe wholeheartedly that they teach us. And there is no wasted time. There is no wasted project. Not even a project in its infancy or to the very bitter end. There’s no waste because it all speaks to and helps us. Forms who we are as a designer and our design businesses. So we’re learning from this. So, okay, cue the learning. All right. What do we take away from this? What can I have done differently? And chances are you will have, you know, one or two things that you’d like to do differently in the future.
[00:12:25] Kris: Yeah. Another question to ask yourself. Were there any red flags earlier on in this process? Were there any warning signs?
[00:12:34] Don: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:35] Kris: Like were you dismissing a gut feel that you had. Was this situation a little too promising and too good?
[00:12:43] Don: Yes. Yeah, that’s it. Like my example that I’ve just shared, we were willing to let the little red flags go and we’re calling them little red flags well. We were dismissing them as not being of great importance. So yeah, absolutely, make sure that you are seeing them for what they are. A little red flag is genuinely, usually enormous, so just be mindful of that.
[00:13:05] Kris: And so what can be really upsetting about this whole process of having to deal with a nasty client is having that extreme discomfort that comes with the possibility that somebody does not like you.
[00:13:18] Don: Yeah. That’s the bottom line, right? Mm-hmm.
[00:13:22] Kris: Like you are walking around and there’s another person on the planet who is not happy with your work or thinks you’re an idiot or thinks that you’re not competent or that the project didn’t go well or whatever their complaint or niggle is, and there are very few of us who can just push that feeling aside.
[00:13:38] Don: Absolutely. Absolutely. There are very few of us who can brush that aside. There are a lot of us who will take it really personally, who will actually say, you don’t like me. Not the project, not the process. Not the X, Y, Z, but me. Little me. You don’t like me. You know, and it’s really uncomfortable. That’s a really uncomfortable feeling for a lot of us.
[00:13:59] Kris: Mm-hmm. In the show notes, we’ll link to a great article about letting other people’s opinions rule your life that you may find helpful if you are feeling hindered by people pleasing and worrying about what people think. Because even if you don’t have nasty clients, it’s still gonna underpin your business.
[00:14:18] Don: Yeah. So, the gist of the article is this, we evolved as part of a tribe. If the head of the tribe decided that you were no good, then you could be banished. So your very survival was at stake.
[00:14:33] Kris: Yeah. Because you couldn’t survive without the tribe.
[00:14:35] Don: Yeah. Yeah. You’d be banished off or by yourself. Yeah. So very primal, powerful
[00:14:43] Kris: fear. Yeah. we would still have that really deep down in certain parts of our brain. Because we have this, this subconscious, like a primal part of the brain that people not liking me is a very big problem.
[00:14:57] Don: Yeah. It’s a very big problem and I have to have everybody like me because I have to survive. Yes. So let’s address that.
[00:15:03] Kris: Yeah. We’ve actually evolved. Yeah. Yeah. And we can actually survive with people not liking
[00:15:09] Don: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:15:09] Kris: It’s okay.
[00:15:09] Don: Yeah. That’s it. That’s it. So what can we do to release this primal fear of being accepted and loved? We’ve got seven places for you to start, so let’s go through them. Number one, when you know you haven’t done anything wrong, Examine where your desire to please and be liked stems from.
And it will be different for all of us. So have you had rejection in the past? You know, have you had a project rejected? Have you personally have rejected, go back, go way back, you know, were you the little person in the row being selected for basketball and you didn’t get chosen? Like where did it stem from? Where has this need to be liked and need to be chosen come from?
[00:15:51] Kris: Yeah, so really go far back. Like Don said, you know, it could even be a childhood trauma. It could be a family trauma. It could be a high school trauma where something that you did wasn’t liked. Maybe it was a teacher who said, I don’t like your artwork, and they gave you a bad mark, and it’s purely subjective, but they decided, that was that. And you put your heart and soul into it. So journal on it, write stuff down. Yeah. About what you can unpack with this.
[00:16:20] Don: Absolutely. I have an example where that exact thing happened to me. Yeah. I was in year four. I had a teacher who I loved and adored, thought the sun shone from her . She was amazing. Yeah. And I did, an illustration of a toucan. And this toucan was know, right. You have a giggle. It’s, it’s true story. I did this amazing illustration of a toucan and colored it and spent all of this time on it, and it was probably my best work and I was doing this best work for her because I adored her so much.
And then, when I handed it into her, she assumed someone else had done it. because it was too elevated, too good for the little year four self who handed it in. And so she questioned whether I had done it or not, which completely shattered me. I was like, Oh my gosh, you don’t believe that I have done this?
[00:17:23] Kris: You think I’m a fraud?
[00:17:24] Don: You don’t think that this is mine. You know, and I was doing it for you, you know, it was a double whammy rejection, if you like. And so that was really important for me moving into my career. That little story, really important for me to really acknowledge that for what it was. And not take that on. Take that little girl’s pain on into my career where I have to prove myself, prove my originality, prove my whole worth to the whole world all the time with every project that I do.
[00:17:57] Kris: Yeah. And doesn’t that just show how you can have such good intentions and then you can be misunderstood somebody will misconstrue the situation you’re like, wow,
[00:18:08] Don: Where did that come from?
[00:18:09] Kris: You’re questioning my integrity.
[00:18:11] Don: Yeah. What? Yeah. So needless to say, this little year four girl went home in tears you know, it was, it was just, it was a big moment and having the understanding that that moment was the thing that I had to process for my adult self to flourish and not have that as a fear in my career was really important work. So it’s little things like that that we might dismiss and don’t understand the underlying power of that. So we want you to tap into that and go, okay, I see you for what you were. Well, you’re not gonna sabotage the rest of my life. Thank you very much.
[00:18:49] Kris: Yeah. Okay. I’ve got more stories. I don’t know if I should share them though.
[00:18:55] Don: Yeah, share it.
[00:18:56] Kris: So this was a university story and I was in third year, so it was a four year degree. I was in third year and I had a lecturer I really, really admired. I usually got really good grades with this lecturer, and I really liked the assignments and all that sort of thing, but we had an assignment where we had to come back by the end of the class, which was a four hour kind of tutorial slash lecture period and create an ad. And we had to pin them all up on the wall and it was terrifying for me to have to do something so fast when I wasn’t really feeling particularly creative that day. And then I thought I created a solution and I really nailed it. So, um, what the brief was, was to create a breast cancer awareness ad without using any typography. No type. No type at all.
[00:19:46] Don: Challenge accepted .
[00:19:48] Kris: So what I did was I illustrated… it was a reminder to women to get a breast check, right?
[00:19:54] Don: Get your mammogram, everybody.
[00:19:56] Kris: Exactly. was that. And then, so what I did for this solution was I actually illustrated this beautiful illustration of a woman with a checklist and it was her to-do list for the day and she was just checking off her things. So it was like a photo illustration and I thought that it didn’t include type, because I didn’t overlay any messaging.
No typeset text, right? Yeah. And so we put them all around the room and everybody was like looking at them all, and the lecturer said, okay, who’s got the best one? Who do you think did the best job of this? And somebody put their hand up and pointed to mine and I’m sitting there going…
[00:20:33] Don: yay!
[00:20:33] Kris: And then the lecturer said, I think that’s the worst one.
[00:20:37] Don: Oh no!
[00:20:37] Kris: And he to absolutely hammer it, like how bad it was, because I used type and, you know, just the whole thing was, I was just melting in my chair. Can I just escape into the deep dark hole. But that lecturer also gave me like, I think I got 90 out of a hundred later on in fourth year, for an assignment I did. And I got a lot of high grades, HD’s from him. So it it did repair itself, but it was very hard in that moment to not see myself as a really crappy designer.
[00:21:06] Don: Yeah absolutely. It could have been a very defining moment had you not gotten beyond that. And like you said, it repaired itself because, you know, you had other experiences with this person and great grades and the whole thing. But in that moment, on that day, he chose to make an example of your work and that could have impacted greatly on you. So, so great that you recognize that for what it was and what it is and or has been and move past that. So yeah. But you can see and sense even when we are talking about these stories, that there is still that memory of the pain that was there. So acknowledging the pain for what it is and what it was, and accepting it and it’s okay, which leads beautifully into the next point. You can acknowledge that you are angry. You could acknowledge in the moment you have every right to be, and we love. a strategy that we use when we do get a bit angry, you can tap on it using eft, which is Emotional Freedom Technique. And we love Brad Yates videos. So we’ll pop a link in the show notes for you there.
[00:22:13] Kris: Brad covers every possible emotion we think, you know, search his channel, it’s got everything that you could possibly imagine.
[00:22:19] Don: Yeah, absolutely. So just allow yourself to have been upset. Allow yourself to have popped yourself into the sink hole in that moment and whatever. Feel it and then release it.
[00:22:30] Kris: Yeah. And you can still use that technique for things that happened many, many years ago as well to clear them. It’s a really good energy clearing technique and it uses meridian points or acupuncture points around the body and it’s, it’s got actual evidence about its effectiveness as well, especially with emotional trauma. Even things like phobias.
[00:22:48] Don: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So that’s a strategy. First and foremost, acknowledge it and then maybe help yourself with that anger by tapping through it, or the pain or the fear, whatever the emotion is. Assist your body to process that by using that beautiful technique.
[00:23:04] Kris: Yeah. All right. Number three, reaffirm that you are a good human and you have good intentions. So you might need to go and have a look at your past testimonials that you’ve received, any kind words that you’ve received, to boost yourself up. And just see the impact that you’re having in people’s lives. You are impacting people’s lives in a really positive way, and we like to gather them all in one spot. And you can call it something like your Sunshine folder. I think we’ve mentioned it before, but we just love the idea of having somewhere that you can go and boost yourself up.
[00:23:38] Don: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So go ahead and do that. It’s a perfect strategy. Everyday strategy. We love it.
So number four, take note of how you might dim your light. Now, a lot of us do this or avoid showing up in the future because of this. So don’t let that nasty person have this much power over you and live rent free in your head, because that’s what they’re doing.
They’re living rent free in your head. So try as we might, we can’t always control the outcome. And we love Brene Brown. I almost think, does a podcast go by without us mentioning Brene? Anyway, she talks about having the courage to show up when you can’t control the outcome. So please keep showing up regardless. And that’s what Kris did. She had that awful experience with that one project. She kept showing and then she elevated, and in fact she skyrocketed. So you just have to keep showing up and believing in yourself.
[00:24:33] Kris: Absolutely. Number five, this one is really tricky.
[00:24:37] Don: It is. It’s the hardest one.
[00:24:39] Kris: The hardest one. So we want you to forgive the asshole. And we know this is so hard, but forgiveness does not mean you condone the behavior. Okay. Or that you ever have to work with them again. An asshole is an asshole.
[00:24:52] Don: Yeah. That’s it. Yes,
[00:24:53] Kris: yes. Another person who we have admired so much and loved her books, loved her legacy that she left on the planet is Maya Angelou. She talks about having the courage to stand up and say, I forgive. I’m done with it.
[00:25:08] Don: I love that. Yes. So much. Yep.
[00:25:12] Kris: And she talked about forgiveness as one of the greatest gifts that you can give yourself. It’s not about that person, it’s about you. And she said, forgive everyone. It’s not for the other person, and it’s for your own sake to rid yourself of that weight.
[00:25:26] Don: Yeah. I love that. The key in that is the greatest gift you can give yourself. Not the other person, because we often think that forgiveness is a gift to another. But it is not. It is partly, but it’s greatest gift is for ourselves, and that was a massive paradigm shift for me in my life.
[00:25:47] Kris: Me too.
[00:25:48] Don: It was massive. It’s like, wow, okay. I forgive you in order to not have this weight on my shoulders and what a freeing thing. That beautiful little quote, I forgive. I’m done with it. So beautiful. It really does allow you to move forward and that’s what we want for you and your beautiful businesses.
[00:26:08] Kris: Yeah.
[00:26:09] Don: And Brene Brown also has her take on forgiveness. In her New York Times bestselling book, Rising Strong, she says, to forgive is not just to be altruistic. It is the best form of self-interest.
Again, thank you. Self-interest, It is also a process that does not exclude hatred and anger. These emo tions are all part of being human. You should never hate yourself for hating others who do terrible things. When I talk of forgiveness, I mean the belief that you can come out the other side a better person.
Oh, Brene, honestly You are amazing. Yeah. That is amazing.
[00:26:49] Kris: She also talks about how um, when you forgive, you’re no longer chained to the perpetrator. You’re no longer chained asshole.
[00:26:56] Don: Yeah.
[00:26:57] Kris: You can actually move on. That’s what we want.
[00:26:59] Don: Yeah. Beautiful. All right. Number six. Stay professional. Now, keep the higher ground and don’t burn any bridges. So as Queen Michelle Obama says, when they go low, we go high. You’ve got this. Really, it is as simple as that. Be the ultimate professional. That’s what we want you to do.
[00:27:21] Kris: Yes, because you don’t know who they know, and if they don’t have any actual dirt they can dish on you, well then they can’t go very far with that, can they? But if you explode in anger tell them exactly what you think of them
[00:27:35] Don: Yeah,
[00:27:35] Kris: It could actually do more damage to you than them, and that’s not what we want. Your aim is to hurt them, but it might,
[00:27:40] Don: it might hurt you. It will. 100% I believe hurt you, because we are mirroring their behavior, which we’re actually opposed to. Yeah. We’re actually calling them names for goodness going, how dare you be a bad egg, an ass hat, an asshole, whatever you wanna call them. And then we’re actually doing that right back at them.
[00:28:00] Kris: We love ass hat
[00:28:01] Don: we, know every time.. I know we get the giggles about it. But that’s the thing, right? We don’t want that. We don’t want that person in our lives. So we don’t wanna represent that by giving that back to them ever. You know? So it’s about respecting yourself. Yeah.
[00:28:18] Kris: So, number seven,
[00:28:20] Don: Last one.
[00:28:20] Kris: This is our last point to consider. Share your experience with another designer or a design community.
[00:28:28] Don: Yes. We got your back. yeah,
[00:28:31] Kris: Which brings us to a little announcement. It’s not a little announcement. It’s a big announcement.
[00:28:36] Don: It’s huge. Kris.
[00:28:38] Kris: Yes, so drum roll. We have a new Facebook group that everybody can join. it’s a private group, but everyone can join. And it is called the Design and Prosper podcast Community.
[00:28:50] Don: Yep. That’s it. We labored over this name, didn’t we? Kris? But we landed on podcast community because we love the idea of creating a community of like-minded designers who are going to support each other and hold space for each other and it be really nurturing.
So we, do have a few questions that you will need to answer and you will need to accept the terms and conditions, which are for the of all, which are, be a nice person. Don’t be an ass hat. You can come on in and play in this playground and you can be supported and you can share these stories and you can be seen when you are working solo in a solo position in an office all by yourself and you’re dealing with these really incredibly tricky people. You can have a sounding board to be able to share this with. We’re really excited by it.
[00:29:43] Kris: Yes. So if you are the sort of person who wants to charge premium pricing, for example, you know, you wanna elevate, this is a group where we wanna elevate people. So we’ll be discussing all the concepts around the podcast, for example. So if you have anything you would like us to cover on the podcast, you can also pop that in there as well. Let us know your questions.
[00:30:04] Don: Yep. We are here for you. There’s that old saying, a problem shared is a problem halved. So we open the doors and our hearts to you to share your problems and just knowing you are not alone can help you move on and release it from circling around in your mind. Yeah.
[00:30:20] Kris: So onwards and upwards, beautiful designers. We are absolutely here for you and we love you so much. We love you for listening in every episode and it just gives us so much joy be able to share this journey with you.
[00:30:34] Don: Yeah. Keep being brave. Have a great week. We will talk with you again soon. bye.
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